Sociological Images

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• The whistle blows « toxic culture 3:32 pm on November 13, 2009 | # | Reply

  [...] are a concupiscent cornicopian. In this case, perhaps you will say that you must work to purchase the objects appropriate to your gender. Or perhaps you shrug all that off; you are a DIY diva – a pioneer of pointless punctuation [...]

• Because Sassy Patterns And Floral Prints Make Men’s Eyeballs Bleed… » Sociological Images 3:29 pm on November 29, 2009 | # | Reply

  [...] in gendered products: tv dinners, uniforms, candy bars, ear plugs ‘n stuff, deodorant, Pepsi, and mosquito repellent. 37 Comments Tags: gender, gender: [...]

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  Sean 8:58 pm on December 5, 2009 | # | Reply

  I love the snuggies pictures. The boy is playing his Xbox, and the girl is talking on the phone. Because girls don’t play video games! Girls like to gossip on the phone all day.

  =P

  (oh, and they flipped the images, because that’s clearly the mirror image of an xbox 360 controller.)

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  Trent 6:09 am on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  Dear lord, I hope you’re kidding. As a gamer I can tell you that the ratio between males and females on most online games is conservatively 50 to 1. Maybe it’s the alcohol talking, but feminists piss me off. No, the manufactures of Snuggies are not trying to establish a oppressive system where boys get to play xbox while girls are only allowed to “gossip on the phone all day”. All they’re doing is observation. If you want to change the perception then girls pick up a stupid video game and cap some fools while Sean gossips to all his gay buddies about how repressive I am.

  • 

    sarah 12:28 pm on February 1, 2010 | # | Reply

    Chill

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  Jenny 12:41 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  Trent,
  I understand your frustration but here are a few points to consider… first, I do think it’s the alcohol because a feminist is really anyone who does not like oppression or does not consider a certain group in society better than another by virtue of some innate quality. Feminism isn’t simply a militant attitude towards men, which I don’t think was implied here.
  Second, you are correct! Statistically speaking, more men play video games than women. But — why does an electric blanket package has to rely on this statistic? They could have just as simply depicted both genders doing something all kids do: watching TV or (god forbid) reading. Yet, the manufacturers intentionally decided to reinforce a gender divide.
  Last, did you ever ask yourself why girls don’t usually pick up a ’stupid video game’? Perhaps it is because the games themselves are marketed to men and are made FOR men. Many of them are based on war and violence, many of them are innately racist and many rely on objectified women characters. Trust me, I have played video games in the past but somehow always got turned off my the monotonous spilling of blood and groaning of dying Japanese soldiers.
  No one is blaming YOU or men in general for anything… your frustration is actually indicative of an understanding that this entire situation is ridiculous — an understanding you and I share.
  Don’t be pissed off at feminists (at least not ALL feminists). And if you’re keen on introducing more women to what you love to do, I’m game (pun intended).

  Have a wonderful day!
  Jenny

  • 

    sarah 12:29 pm on February 1, 2010 | # | Reply

    <3

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  Josh 6:53 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  “I have played video games in the past but somehow always got turned off my the monotonous spilling of blood and groaning of dying Japanese soldiers.” So why are you turned off by that while boys are not? Would we be balancing the gender scales if we somehow encouraged girls to enjoy that kind of activity? Isn’t that indicative of males and females being different, so justifying different roles and stereotypes?

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  Jenny 6:58 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  No, it’s indicative of the socialization of males, from a very young age, to associate their masculinity with violence and use of power. And no, I don’t think women should be taught to enjoy that, I think men should be taught differently. There is no innate difference between genders in our ability to enjoy violence, that’s a ridiculous claim. Males and females are only different insofar as their biology is different. What video games you enjoy or associate yourself with is not determined by birth.

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  Trent 7:13 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  Sober and now prepared for dialectic.

  I understand the intended meaning of feminist, but in my own meager experience, I’ve seen far more nutjobs (for lack of a better word) that call themselves feminists than those I would consider rational (and no the irony of my last comment is not lost on me). My beef with the term is that if feminists are supposed to be more centrist than the extremist feminists, I would expect to hear greater dissent and even disapproval of their actions and beliefs.
  To clarify, I’ve never believed feminists are bra-burners and man-bashers; all that was long before my time. What I do believe is that feminists often take strong stances on topics that don’t matter. Sure, the disparity between men’s salaries vs women’s salaries in a given field is something to rectify, but I don’t think criticizing Snuggies for their advertising is the way to do it. As you recognized, in general men play more video games than girls and girls spend more time on the phone. Granted, they don’t have to “rely on this statistic”, but I just don’t see the problem if they do. I didn’t need to pick up a Snuggies box to know I liked video games.
  Which brings me to your next point; why males like video games better. I believe it is based on natural selection rather than socialization. Men are far more attuned to visual stimulation while women are more attuned to social interaction. This explains why men are more attracted to T&A while women are attracted to a man who is confident or who makes her laugh. But let’s assume I’m wrong on this count and that there is a demand for video games marketed to women and young girls. In our free market economy, some developer would recognize the demand and create a niche market to capitalize on it. Said another way, propping up outdated sexism is far less important to video game developers than money.

  That’s probably not all I had, but that’s all I can think of right now. While I don’t agree with some of your perceptions and conclusions, I appreciate the maturity and rationality in which they were stated. Especially after responding to a comment that was neither.

  • 

    KD 8:41 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

    Trent, it may be that you don’t understand the relevance of these problems because they haven’t affected you. To use your video game example, it is difficult to tell women to just go play some video games to prove that they like them, when video games (and male gamers) are so hostile to women. I’m sure you’ve heard the word privilege thrown around before; well, this is what it means. It doesn’t mean that a privileged person gets a free hand-out, or undeserved rewards, but it does mean that they have an easier time getting what they deserve. A person without privilege has more barriers in their way, and a woman that plays video games has many barriers before her.

    As a man, when you play a game, you enjoy these privileges:

    1) You have little reason to be believe that when you talk to someone online, they’re just trying to cyber you/sleep with you.
    2) Most conversations you have aren’t about sex; most pms you get aren’t about sex.
    3) You will not be sexually harassed; no one will ever reply to one of your posts with, “Show us your tits!”
    4) You will never be followed by another customer in a game store.
    5) No one will ever point and scream at you in a game store because of your gender.
    6) You will never be denied purchase of a video game because of your gender.
    7) The sales clerk will never hand your change and purchased game to your girlfriend and say, “I know she’s the one that’s going to be playing it.”
    The phone man will never follow you into your bedroom, and, upon finding out that you play computer games, stand and stare at you for twenty minutes while you pray your father gets home early and plan what you can do if he tries to rape you.
    9) In every game you play, you can find someone that looks like you who is adventurous, competent, and non-sexualized. Usually, you get to play as him, too.
    10) Every game you play was made for your gender.
    11) When you complain about a game online, other gamers will not tell you to shut up because men don’t play anyway, so it doesn’t matter.
    12) You will never be expected to flirt with/nurture any of your friends in an online game.
    13) If you have a hard time with a game, it’s because you’re a bad player, not because of your gender.
    14) If you choose to play in local tournaments, no one will stare at you, hit on you, or judge the rest of your gender on your performance.
    15) If you attend an industry conference, you’ll have people of the opposite sex dressed down for your pleasure. Nearly every game you play will have the same.

    • 

      sara 11:28 pm on December 26, 2009 | # | Reply

      i work at a gamestop as the only female among about half a dozen male employees. the guys are good to me and they have told me on several occassions about inappropriate comments customers have made about “that gamer chick”.

      people will often ask me why i dont own a newer system being that i work at a game store and quite frankly, price aside, practically every game has you playing as a heroic guy surronded by half naked girls or a girl who is only heroic because she is half naked.

      we have been getting some decent game ideas in lately with smart, clever female main characters, but i cant help thinking that they only sell at all because guys want to look at her tight top.

      and, for every good, smart girl character, there are hundreds of games where women either dont exist or are incompitent or are portrayed as bimbos.

      and if you want to see gender stereotyping, you neednt look further than DS titles. there are so many stupid, pointless titles for that system aimed at girls and parents who want their girls to be hyper girly (examples include games where you take care of babies and games where you play teacher)
      meanwhile, games geared to boys have elements of strategy and action or problem solving.

      its the same thing that people tend to do in elementary schools: they thing (and teach to the thought that) boys need to learn more math and science and will be better at it and girls can do whatevers leftover in a mediocre way and thats fine because they dont have a high standard to be held to as a female.

      sorry for rambling, just observing.
      the funny thing is, if we tone down the social gender divide, both genders gain in respect and wellbeing

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  Trent 7:15 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  “There is no innate difference between genders in our ability to enjoy violence, that’s a ridiculous claim.”

  Would it be a stretch to assume that along with biological differences given to us by natural selection, psychological differences would come as well?

  • 

    adilegian 11:11 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

    “Would it be a stretch to assume that along with biological differences given to us by natural selection, psychological differences would come as well?”

    Yes, it would be.

    Meet more women.

    • 

      Jenny 11:13 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

      I don’t really see how this is at all productive in having a man, who just said he’s only met militant feminists, miraculously change his mind… communication is about more than just careless attacks on people’s social lives.

      • 

        Trent 11:17 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

        Ha, I like you Jenny.

      • 

        adilegian 11:20 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

        Hi Jenny. I’m a man. ^____^

        No need to gender feminists.

        In my experience, the ability to maintain biased, privileged assumptions about a whole group of people is strengthened by a lack of interaction with them.

        My point stands.

        • 

          Jenny 11:28 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          Never said you weren’t a man, just said Trent was.

          I know plenty of assholes who ’socialize’ with women more than they need to. It’s not about quantity, it’s about quality.

        • 

          adilegian 11:32 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          Okay, then maybe I should write this: “Meet women better.”

          I’m always torn on the tension between talking about unjust social ideas and talking about a specific person’s social ideas. Coddling privilege doesn’t lead to a better sense of awareness on behalf of the privileged party.

        • 

          adilegian 11:37 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          Also, I should clarify a point of my misunderstanding. I assumed that you had assumed that I was female because you had implicitly agreed with Trent’s assumption that feminists were women. This clearly has been a misreading of your post, and I apologize.

          I think Trent’s drunk post is more revealing and honest than anything he’s written since.

        • 

          Jenny 11:42 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          It’s okay, I can see how you could have thought that. I most DEFINITELY do not think all feminists are women. First of all, we’re operating within a gender binary here that isn’t representative of 100% of the population (I just thought it was a bit early to bring that up) and second, some of the strongest, most insightful feminists I’ve met identify as men. What I also try to remind myself is that I am privileged in my ability to live within a circle of individuals who share some of the same assumptions I make daily and who understand all of these issues. They are not representative to everybody and I try to be open and understanding towards those who struggle with these ideas, as well as understand their life experiences. Whether or not they are part of the privileged group, they are still people who should not be punished for not having had the same education and experiences as I have. Somehow I think you understand exactly what I mean.

        • 

          Trent 11:55 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          “I think Trent’s drunk post is more revealing and honest than anything he’s written since.”

          My drunk post reveals little more than my frustration at Sean’s comment and, more broadly, extremists who call themselves feminists. It does little to explain my view of the more rational feminists like Jenny (if you call yourself one), my old boss, and one of my friend from high school. Unfortunately, those are the only ones who have raised the esteem of feminists in my mind (3 out of many) and so I often forget they’re out there.

        • 

          adilegian 11:56 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          Yes, Jenny, I understand what you mean. I appreciate your candor, and I do sympathize with circumstances that do not permit a person to rise above inherited ignorance.

          However, I have about one person with whom I can share these frustrations: my wife. I have other close friends with whom I agree on these issues, but they (unfortunately) don’t comprise the bulk of my daily social experience.

          The bulk of my daily social experience is filled with people in the videogames industry and subculture — an often smarmy crowd who pack their brains with sexualized notions of women and do their damndest (whether they know it or not) to keep themselves as repulsive to women as possible. (Rape, for instance, often appears as a subject of humor.)

          In other words, I’m immersed in this subculture for my own personal reasons that keep me slogging through the idiocy, yet I know that these people are not so underprivileged that they haven’t had the opportunities to be enlightened. Videogames ain’t nohow cheap, and lots of these kids have access to higher education and the possibility of interacting with people from a variety of backgrounds.

          But they don’t. They keep themselves in self-reinforcing nodules of ignorance and social privilege. They go to college and come out still believing that women will be flattered if called “hot” because they play videogames.

          If I don’t respect people with these attitudes from this subculture, it’s due mostly to exposure and experience. My ideas and opinions might change with time, though I’m pretty firm on being disgusted with maintained ignorance.

        • 

          Jenny 12:09 am on December 7, 2009 | #

          What you’re describing sounds like a terribly frustrated, awful experience to go through on a regular basis. I can really relate to the feeling of loneliness on an issue that should seem so obvious and natural to everyone… and the feeling of violation and anger, as well as disappointment, when you encounter such repulsive views. Unfortunately, there is no easy solution to this, as you must know better than I do, considering your more extensive life experience. I still think that by creating communities of support, virtual when physical are lacking, and reassuring each other, can improve our condition. I am blessed to be currently enrolled in an extremely liberal college in which the majority of students are very much aware of everything we’ve talked about today… but I know that this isn’t the norm. What is hard to get through is the negativity, fear, anger and closed mindedness people immediately exhibit when they first face this issue… I still don’t know how to balance feeling anger and violation and, at the same time, being able to understand the feelings and motivations of those I am angry with…
          I don’t have any answers… I just try to continue treating others with respect and compassion and hope not to self destruct along the way.

        • 

          Jenny 12:12 am on December 7, 2009 | #

          Trent, what you are referring to as “rational” is simply an ability to listen, remain compassionate and entertain the point of view of someone with a distinctively different life experience. These kills are not the product of rationality, they are the product of feminist, humanist thinking and understandings. This doesn’t mean that we’re in different camps or that all of a sudden everything I said is less valid, it means that I think you are clinging to a particular language and world view that does not even represent what you truly believe. Patience and tolerance as key here, not an ability to argue a logical point.

    • 

      Trent 11:39 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

      Actually most of my friends are women. Side effect of growing up with only sisters. I fully recognize a lot of similarities, but I also recognize quite a few differences that can’t be explained simply by socialization.

      But you’re saying that men and women are born psychologically the same? Then how do you explain a man’s infatuation with breasts? Men don’t have a use for them after they grow teeth so why is it we’re so crazy about them after adolescence? And don’t tell me it’s socialization; if it were I would think Angelina Jolie was at least mildly attractive. On the other hand, I didn’t need anyone to tell me that Rachel McAdams is hot, it’s pretty obvious.

      Here’s my attempt at a scientific explanation for men’s infatuation boobs. Women with nice breasts are more likely to be able to supply milk needed for infants to survive. Therefore, attraction to breasts was vital in the days before Cub Foods and baby formula. And that is why Scarlett Johanson is famous.

      • 

        Jenny 11:44 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

        You’re being defensive and deviating from the subject for no good reason. I think you need to take a break and think before I truly begin having a hard time advocating for you… somehow from your earlier posts I have a hard time believing that this particular one is representative of your intellectual or emotional capacities. Not impressed.

      • 

        Trent 11:44 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

        What the heck? I didn’t think this posted. Sorry, read the other one. It’s the same as this, but has an extra paragraph.

      • 

        adilegian 11:46 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

        “But you’re saying that men and women are born psychologically the same? Then how do you explain a man’s infatuation with breasts? Men don’t have a use for them after they grow teeth so why is it we’re so crazy about them after adolescence? And don’t tell me it’s socialization; if it were I would think Angelina Jolie was at least mildly attractive. On the other hand, I didn’t need anyone to tell me that Rachel McAdams is hot, it’s pretty obvious.”

        It is socialization. You’re ignorant, Trent.

        “a scientific explanation for men’s infatuation boobs”

        How do you explain cultures that don’t sexualize breasts? You’re writing out of your own very narrow experience.

        You don’t know as much as you think you do.

        • 

          Jenny 11:48 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          Yeah, I have to agree on this one. Not the best attempt I’ve seen.

        • 

          Trent 11:59 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          Which cultures?

    • 

      Trent 11:43 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

      Actually most of my friends are women. Side effect of growing up with only sisters. I fully recognize a lot of similarities, but I also recognize quite a few differences that can’t be explained simply by socialization.

      But you’re saying that men and women are born psychologically the same? Then how do you explain a man’s infatuation with breasts? Men don’t have a use for them after they grow teeth so why is it we’re so crazy about them after adolescence? And don’t tell me it’s socialization; if it were I would think Angelina Jolie was at least mildly attractive. On the other hand, I didn’t need anyone to tell me that Rachel McAdams is hot, it’s pretty obvious.

      Here’s my attempt at a scientific explanation for men’s infatuation boobs. Women with nice breasts are more likely to be able to supply milk needed for infants to survive. Therefore, attraction to breasts was vital in the days before Cub Foods and baby formula. And that is why Scarlett Johanson is famous.

      On the other hand, if there is no psychological difference, there is no explanation for this besides the sentiment that men “think with their dick”. Though in truth, the penis has no cognitive capacity which implies that the explanation still remains in the psyche.

      • 

        Jenny 11:47 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

        The next logical step would be to acknowledge that you attacked a human being and insulted her, based on your need to fight a battle in which there is only one side.

        • 

          Trent 11:57 pm on December 6, 2009 | #

          I don’t understand where attacking and insulting came from. Which battle only has one side?

        • 

          Jenny 12:02 am on December 7, 2009 | #

          “Unless you’re a troll which is what I hope”… KD shared some really difficult experiences… you should really try to calm down and think about how hard it must be to be in her shoes… I have also been sexually assaulted and I ensure you, it’s a very disempowering experience. Please, consider what she said more carefully… each of us has a background that brings us to the stance we take in this argument but we are all on the same side.
          I am not a “rational feminist”… I am a person who understands others and who tries to see what they see. If anything, the method I have employed in this entire conversation is far from “rational”… I tried to understand what individuals must be feeling and what they’ve been through in order to bring them to say what they said…. and as a result we uncover three (or four, including me) people who have gone through disappointment and feeling isolated and attacked for who they are… I really hope that you can try to understand what I’m saying and take it seriously… some of your recent comments have been a little out there.

        • 

          Jenny 12:03 am on December 7, 2009 | #

          I meant “assure” not “ensure”. It’s getting late and this is my third language.

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  Jenny 8:40 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  No, it wouldn’t be a stretch at all. I don’t know enough about psychology to be able to address that intelligently. My hunch (as a Sociologist, or one in training) is to lean towards explanations that rely on the sociocultural aspects of social psychology.
  I loved your response. Let’s see what I have time to respond to, on this impulsive study break… when I came across feminist theory and philosophy not so long ago, my immediate concern was that the labeling of an individual or group as feminist would create unnecessary divides that could yield conflict. I was later able to see both pros and cons of identifying as feminist but I actually still share your discomfort with some of the ways the movement (or sentiment, and the irony here doesn’t escape me either) manifested itself. I do a lot of sexual assault prevention work, more recently with men, and have myself had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around the notion that some seemingly harmless events or messages could be, in the context of the larger system, dangerous.
  I’d be lying if I said that I am completely convinced that everything from opening the door for a lady, or packaging an electric blanket in a gendered box, immediately adds to all that’s wrong with society. But what I have begun to do is be a little bit more critical and aware of the ways gendered messages are injected into our consciousness.
  Do I think that box is ‘wrong’ or ‘harmful’? I don’t know. I do believe that creating discussion and, inevitably, debate about it couldn’t hurt.
  As far as violence and aggression go, that’s a field I am more confident in blaming for some of the problems I encounter in my life. There is no doubt that the socialization into masculinity involves a great deal of ‘thirst for blood’. Unfortunately, I come from a country in which society itself rests on values of military, war and aggression and have seen my own younger family members become unnecessarily fond of aggression, and each time it has been gendered. A professor in my college did extensive work on masculinity, education and violence, which I’m having a hard time quoting right now… but if you’re interested I could look it up.
  In short, I think we agree more than disagree and I would really appreciate hearing more of your insights on this. My mind or opinions are never fully set, and I find far more utility in conversing with others than relying on age old prejudices or pretentious militant academic work.

• 

  Trent 11:16 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

  @KD: The few female gamers I’ve encountered are encouraged in what they do. Heck, if a girl wants to play some Halo with me, I’ll encourage it because frankly…that’s kind of hot. But seriously, what the heck? You think game stores deny sales based on gender? No offense, but with so many self-titled feminists with views like that, it’s tough to give the rational feminists the benefit of the doubt. Unless you’re a troll which is what I hope.

  @Jenny: Well you have my respect. You remind me a ton of my friend from high school who was the first person to inform me that feminism was intended to be nothing more than fighting for women’s rights.

  My biggest problem with the modern feminist movement is its obsession with advertising. The thing about criticizing advertising is that the ad isn’t there to shape the world or socialize anyone; it’s there to turn a profit. Any socialization that happens as a result is circumstantial. A demand from a small interest group on corporations to alter gender rolls in their advertising will fall on mostly deaf ears. Unless there is a legitimate shift in demand it would be absurd for a company shift it’s marketing strategy.

  As a warning, this is kind of going back to my Freshman Comp class where we had to analyze food ads for gender roles. According to the author of the lame article we read (and my teacher) if we show women eating giant whoppers and men eating Dove chocolate bars then that’s how it’ll be. Or something. I don’t know, I hated that class.

  So basically my thesis is that companies can’t be expected to go against what sells. For video games that’s a strong emphasis on games targeted at males (though exceptions exist such as Guitar Hero which is gender-neutral and WiiFit which I would argue is targeted at middle-aged women). For food that’s using large portions for men (and possibly Megan Fox) and using small, succulent morsels for women.

  • 

    Jenny 11:27 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

    I like you too, Trent but I have to say that I didn’t like your response to KD. I’m more than certain that you are honest when you say that you’d appreciate seeing a female Halo player, but I don’t think you can speak for every man out there. The experiences she described are real, lived experiences and I actually related to several of those and was saddened by some others. The fact that those experiences exist, though, doesn’t mean that you are directly responsible for them or that you in any way derive enjoyment from them, which brings me to my next point.
    While a lot of what you say makes sense, I also sense a defensiveness and slight aggression in your tone. I can understand where it comes from but I have to say… what I want in my life are more male friends who are on ‘my side’, ones that don’t necessarily feel the need to argue with everything logically. Does it matter if ever single detail of KD’s post made sense or can be proved, as long as that’s been her experience? I feel as much for her as I do for you, after learning you were in a class which angered you, to which you were not able to relate (and which seems to have shaped at least a portion of the way you see things now).
    I am actually working towards a career in advertising so what you are saying makes perfect sense to me but here’s something to consider… just because something is going to sell and make a profit is not good enough reason to *always* approve of its strategy. There is a spectrum. Yes, advertisers should be held responsible when their campaigns are harmful, as has been done in the case of adverts that used emaciated models in recent years. Do *some* feminists (and other crowds) make moralistic claims against advertising campaigns on sometimes ridiculous grounds? Also yes. Everything should be examined in context.
    Trent, to honor your friendship with said high school friend (and me), you should really look into feminism a little bit more… I have had insightful, eye opening arguments with feminists who had virtually distinct views on practically every issue… from food to pornography. You’d be surprised. Just please, don’t be tempted to resort to cynicism and insults… that just makes everybody a hell of a lot more upset. Think of it this way… you expect feminists to be militant, and some women expect men to be assholes… neither of those expectations is realistic, but they are based on unfortunate life experiences that should be battled, not confirmed.
    I’m pretty certain we’re all on the same side here, after all. And just to prove the site makes sense… look at this men vs. women battle we’ve forged for absolutely no good reason!

  • 

    adilegian 11:29 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

    “No offense, but with so many self-titled feminists with views like that, it’s tough to give the rational feminists the benefit of the doubt. Unless you’re a troll which is what I hope.”

    I guess by “self-titled feminists” you mean “people with views and experiences that differ from my own largely because I live a life of cultural and social privilege.” I mean, it’s great that you feel that you can dismiss evidence outside you your experience as valid, but don’t expect it’s going to make you any smarter.

    I deal with these attitudes, as a straight male feminist, in both my professional capacities — as a videogame developer and as a freelance writer. They sicken me, and I see little need (or integrity) in flattering them as respectable.

  • 

    KD 11:33 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

    Um, Trent. I’m not crazy; that happened to me. Yes, I had the sales manager of a game store tell me that he would not sell me Silent Hill 3 because “women don’t play games.” Like I said, I’m sure these things are impossible to imagine if you have never experienced them, but they are real. You underestimate how much these guys want to keep gaming a boy’s club when you say that money and sales should determine who they market to. Also, it comforts me not at ALL that you find gaming hot. That’s exactly the problem. As a female gamer, I’m immediately viewed as a sexual conquest, and rarely anything more. That has led to so much of the sexual harassment, both online and in real life, that has led to my troubled relationship with video games. I love the medium, but I hate the people that play them. You might want to check out the thread on the Evony Ads on this site to see the good ol’ gamer boys represent themselves and what they stand for

    I regret trying to explain this to you at all, because there’s too much to say, and you’re not going to get it. Someone that has never been sexually harassed or threatened with rape is just not going to understand why being invited to play with the boys because you’re “hot” is not the same things as being invited to play as a gamer.

    • 

      Jenny 11:37 pm on December 6, 2009 | # | Reply

      I’m so sorry to hear about these experiences, KD. You’re really strong to share them, especially with someone who was just disrespectful to you. I hope that your personal take on this will make Trent able to be more open minded and understand that this discussion is not simply limited to the theoretical realm.

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      Trent 12:12 am on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

      I’m sorry, I didn’t realize they were real. I’m sorry my comment made you regret sharing, it was out of line. I really do appreciate that you shared, I just wish I’d realized you were before I made the comment.

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        Jenny 12:14 am on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

        Thank you for saying this. I don’t know how KD is going to feel but I think it means something… part of being compassionate, and what I try to do, is always try to put yourself in the other person’s shoes before making assumptions about the validity of what they say… I think it’s great that you’re able to admit your mistake and I’m sure that you’ll be more cautious in the future…

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  Trent 12:19 am on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

  Man alive Jenny, you sure have a way with words.

  In addition to KD, I’d like to apologize to anyone I’ve insulted here. I forget often that my views, though logical in my own mind, are limited by my own lack of exposure to some ugliness in the world. I hope I haven’t turned anyone off from debate and will be less cynical in the future.

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    KD 12:10 pm on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

    Thank you, I sincerely appreciate that. I don’t think I did the best job trying to explain my point, because frankly, there’s so much I could write on all of this and it’s hard to organize.

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I think what we try to do here on SI is not blame the media, but criticize it. The media does not brainwash people; to say so would be to treat everyone as a passive victim. But the media does reflect currently held attitudes and, to some extent, perpetuates them by normalizing them. It is only one small piece that makes up the context of our shared experiences. For example, it’s easier to believe that women are not as visual as men when we see so much advertisment that focuses on women’s bodies, and not men’s. All of my experiences contradict that myth, though, as all the women I know are very much responsive to the sight of a sexy, naked man and have expressed a desire to see more. [Case in point, I'm getting my sister a pin-up for Christmas, and asked my husband for (feminist) porn for Valentine's day.] The lack of naked men in the media has less to do with women wanting to see it, and more to do with male viewers being made uncomfortable by it, and that, in itself, is changing gradually. (The show Kitchen Nightmares, for example, always includes a gratuitous scene of former soccer player turned chef, Gordon Ramsey, getting undressed.) Unless you’ve spoken to a lot of women on the subject (or checked out the romance novel aisle at your local bookstore) it’s easy to take for granted what the media has passed on as fact and believe that women just aren’t as turned on by visuals. The media did not create that myth, but it does help make it look normal. In short, advertising that uses stereotypes disgusts me, and I think it’s lazy, and I’m often angered by it, but I don’t blame it alone for the problems it represents.

    You might wonder what good it is to criticize the media. That isn’t easy to answer. I know that it’s important for me, on a personal level, because understanding (and often rejecting) what I don’t like about it is a way to challenge it. It helps to understand the larger problems that are connected to it.

    A lot of these problems that don’t seem relevant to “real” problems usually do have some connection. Take the wage gap, for instance, which most people readily agree is a real problem because there are numbers to prove it. Why do we have a wage gap? You have to use sociology to explain that. Part of the problem is that over 50% of careers are still segregated by gender, such as nursing, teaching, and science. Studies show, again and again, that people subconsciously view male applicants as more rational and competent, even when sharing all of the same qualities and attitudes as female applicants, and thus are more likely to receive promotions, or have salaries that reflect how much more valuable they appear. Though women are now expected to work, they are still expected to be the primary caregivers of their children, and do over 60% of the domestic labor and childcare at home, despite working the same hours as their husbands. All of this has a great amount to do with how we perceive women as nurturing, selfless, and naturally fit for certain duties. To address the gender wage gap, you have to address the attitudes that cause it, and that means questioning ideas like, what it does it mean to be a father or a mother? Who should be doing the chores at home, or taking care of the children? What attitudes do we expect from men and women in the workplace?

    And finally, while I still have some time to write, I’d like to address the issue of women being encouraged to play games. I know what you’re talking about, because I’ve seen a lot of guys say that they’d love to see more women play, and they dedicate threads to scheming up ideas to get their girlfriends or wives into their favorite hobby. But in my experience, a lot of these guys that claim to want more women around aren’t willing to give up anything to help that happen. They don’t think games should have to change; they don’t believe that games need more naked men, or less sexism, or more female characters in varied roles. They don’t want to have to stop talking about which female characters they want to ejaculate on on message boards, and boy’s club stuff like that. (I’m not saying it’s always inappropriate to talk about that, but yeah, it’s going to be alienating to a lot of girls.) They don’t want Lara Croft occasionally replaced with a naked hunk. In short, a lot of male gamers say they want women to play games, but they don’t want to share space with women. The best example I’ve seen of this is with Oblivion. One of the modders for that game is AlienSlof, a middle-aged, very horny woman that creates erotic content that glorifies male nudity. She’s generally regarded as THE best modder, even by male gamers that otherwise don’t like that stuff, because she’s a professional artist and amazing at what she does. The thing is, while a lot of female gamers love and appreciate her mods, and they consistently receive high ratings and awards, she also gets scads and scads of hate mail on a daily basis from guys that don’t want to see what she makes, and just can’t stand that it exists. These are usually the same guys that download and use the pornographic mods that display female nudity. Slof has quit releasing her mods to the public on several occasions because she just gets so tired of the hate mail. Women that play Oblivion usually have to go to special boards to create a niche where they can talk about the game from their own perspective. And the one time I asked other modders a serious, and non-confrontational question about why there were so few women in mods (I had just finished playing one that had 68 male NPCs and 1 woman, that was dead) I got a lot of sexually hostile responses, like, “The only women I need to see are the naked ones.” Stupid crap meant to ruffle my feathers, but it shows that many people aren’t interested in taking such things seriously. My experience playing games for over 25 years tells me that treating women like people is the best way to get them into games. I think the medium has great potential, and more women would like them if they tried the right ones.

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      Trent 6:16 pm on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

      “The media does not brainwash people; to say so would be to treat everyone as a passive victim. But the media does reflect currently held attitudes and, to some extent, perpetuates them by normalizing them.”

      We agree at the base of the issue which is nice to see.

      I’ve never really understood when people would say that women don’t have anyone to identify with in movies or games. I think I got a small taste of why it’s a concern last night when watching Zombieland. Not sure who’s seen it, but here goes. Woody Harrelson’s character, Talahasee, is a zombie-killing machine whose only weakness is Twinkies. He’s strong, funny, and someone I can say I would want to be. Emma Stone’s character on the other hand only really stays in the story because of the main character’s desire to push her hair back over her ear (which makes more sense if you’ve seen the movie). She is used by the writers for two main purposes in the film; sexual interest for the main character and someone who gets herself into trouble and then has to be rescued. The only thing that could be picked up from watching her is that women are meant to be rescued by men and that women should use their bodies to get what they want. (I did a lot of thinking about this last night…)

      But I’ve heard a ton of people saying what women shouldn’t be (sexual objects, conquests, damsels in distress, etc) but besides negatives, I haven’t heard a clear picture of what they should be depicted as.

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    Anonymous 12:52 pm on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

    ‘Kay, and real quick, about scientific explanations and beauty ideals:

    I’ve said this elsewhere on SI, but here it is in brief:

    Pre-WWII Japan found large breasts ugly because they disrupted the ideal tubular shape of the Kimono. Large breasted women were called, disparagingly, “pigeon-chested.” (But inner wrists and the back of the neck could drive a man into a frenzy.)

    The women in some tropical cultures (and african tribes) go topless because breasts are not considered sexual there.

    You might think that because penises are one of the most noticed differences between men and women that it’s only natural that bigger penises = more attractive, but during greek and roman times large penises were thought to be clumsy and comical, while small genitals were sophisticated and sexy.

    Skinny vs. fat as a sign of health and fertility. Today, a lot of people argue that skinny women are healthier, and therefore innately more attractive. But for much longer, the opposite was held to be true. Some girls used to practice sitting so they appeared to have a double-chin, because that was sexy.

    There are African tribes where the men wear make up and jewelry, go shopping, and engage in idle chatter while women work outside of the house. I don’t have specific names of these tribes, because this is from my textbook at home. I notice that it’s usually tribes, which are isolated from mainstream culture, that tend to have the greatest sexual deviances. I don’t think they have vastly different genetics, but rather that they’ve been free to create their own original ideas about sexuality.

    What has been considered naturally attractive about each sex changes all the time, so it’s important to take that into account when searching for explanations.

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    KD 12:55 pm on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

    ‘Kay, and real quick, about scientific explanations and beauty ideals:

    I’ve said this elsewhere on SI, but here it is in brief:

    Pre-WWII Japan found large breasts ugly because they disrupted the ideal tubular shape of the Kimono. Large breasted women were called, disparagingly, “pigeon-chested.” (But inner wrists and the back of the neck could drive a man into a frenzy.)

    The women in some tropical cultures (and african tribes) go topless because breasts are not considered sexual there.

    You might think that because penises are one of the most noticed differences between men and women that it’s only natural that bigger penises = more attractive, but during greek and roman times large penises were thought to be clumsy and comical, while small genitals were sophisticated and sexy.

    Skinny vs. fat as a sign of health and fertility. Today, a lot of people argue that skinny women are healthier, and therefore innately more attractive. But for much longer, the opposite was held to be true. Some girls used to practice sitting so they appeared to have a double-chin, because that was sexy.

    There are African tribes where the men wear make up and jewelry, go shopping, and engage in idle chatter while women work outside of the house. I don’t have specific names of these tribes, because this is from my textbook at home and I’m going from memory. I notice that it’s usually tribes, which are isolated from mainstream culture, that tend to have the greatest sexual deviances. I don’t think they have vastly different genetics, but rather that they’ve been free to create their own original ideas about sexuality.

    What has been considered naturally attractive about each sex changes all the time, so it’s important to take that into account when searching for explanations.

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  Trent 12:43 am on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

  One last response before I turn in for a bit.

  “Patience and tolerance as key here, not an ability to argue a logical point.”

  I feel I’m fairly good at the logic aspect, but I fear I’m not as good at patience and tolerance as I’d hoped. I’ll work on it. This whole discussion has given me a lot to think about so I thank you all for that.

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    Jenny 7:33 pm on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

    This makes me really happy to read! Thank you, too. I forget sometimes that not everyone shares my way of seeing things… our conversation made me really hopeful and more faithful in communication and compassion!

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  buddymccue 1:04 pm on December 7, 2009 | # | Reply

  I read an article in a consumer’s advocate magazine that talked about this.

  They pointed out that products that are essentially the same, but with labels for each gender are often priced differently.

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  Kefo 6:50 am on December 13, 2009 | # | Reply

  Wow, learnt more from the post-article comments/debate than what was presented to begin with!

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  Sheri 12:40 am on December 15, 2009 | # | Reply

  I think looking at advertising as an example of engendering people is kind of a chicken or egg situation. The advertisers aren’t thinking “how can we greater divide the genders?” They are thinking “how can we make more money by expanding our consumer base?” In order to do this, they try to depict familiar images in their advertising. The Snuggie is a perfect example. Boy sees boy on box playing video game –> boy thinks “He’s like me” –> boy thinks Snuggie is a product he might like. If the boy on the box were reading a book (and that IS in a small picture on the cover, but I mean the main picture) the boy might think “That’s just for nerds”. I don’t think it’s quite as true for the girl people are generally more open to the idea of girls “crossing gender lines” than boys.

  It ultimately comes down to consumers. If gender neutral items sold well in the stores, the advertising would be more gender neutral, too. Unfortunately, advertising and product design is driven by what sells, not what’s best. One activity that I do with my students in English class is to have them create ads for the same product but with different audiences. I have a few examples that I use, such as ads for theme parks geared towards kids, teens and parents…same place, but very different messages. I remember when the movie Titanic was in theatres, there were different styles of ads depending upon which channel you were watching, some focusing on the romance and some focusing on the action.

  In our consumer based society the dollar casts the only vote that counts. If the gender neutral advertising flops and the targeted advertising succeeds, you know what we’ll be seeing more of.

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  Sam 8:58 am on December 17, 2009 | # | Reply

  hey there guys, i have an essay assignment where i’ve got to compare 2 gendered objects. any advice on what objects i could maybe use and interesting points i could talk about, would be appreciated!

• Quick hit: the gender binary fractal in geekdom | Geek Feminism Blog 12:55 am on January 10, 2010 | # | Reply

  [...] animals, jobs, food, kleenex, housework, sound, games, deordorant, love and sex, candy, vitamins, etc) gets split into male and female–is fractal. That means that, for every male or female [...]